Discussion:
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? Rama - Dr. Frederick Lenz
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c***@yahoo.com
2005-05-07 22:06:14 UTC
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Why don't more women attain enlightenment? Rama - Dr. Frederick Lenz

It is equally easy, initially, for either a man or a woman to attain
enlightenment, what we would call liberation or self-realization. It
seems strange, since the aspect of a woman is power and that her subtle
physical body conducts light very well, that more women don't attain
enlightenment than men. I would suggest that the reason this is so, is
cultural.

There's this absurd innate need in most men to feel that they're more
powerful than women are, which is ridiculous. Women have been taught
that they are not powerful; as a matter of fact, they've been given an
opposite description, that they are, in fact, weak. The word
"effeminate" implies weakness.

Men, though, the ideas they have, project a field of attention that
limits women. Because they dream so strongly in themselves, their
superiority and women's inferiority, they project an image that a woman
finds very, very difficult to fight against.

Men have reacted very negatively to the power that is inherent in
women...they have rejected that power and sought to convince women of
the exact opposite, that they are powerless. They have done this
through sexual repression, economic repression, political repression,
social repression, ideological repression and spiritual repression.

Women have been systematically pushed out of spirituality by men...Even
in the Bhagavad-Gita, a book that I revere and respect, it's indicated
that even women, along with animals, are capable of attaining
enlightenment. Historically men have suppressed women quite
effectively. They have suppressed women since the beginning of our
history.

Men are suppressing woman politically, philosophically, socially,
through denying them education, equal rights, equal employment, and
just by setting up a description of the world in which a woman views
herself as a vessel, as someone who's only there to have children, as
someone who can't succeed, even spiritually.

When you wish to subjugate a people, you have to convince them of their
own inherent weakness. The social repression and ideological
repression of women began with depriving them of education, political
decisiveness, mobility and essentially creating sexual slavery.

Up until now, women have depended completely upon men for their
survival. You're dealing with thousands of years of history, where
sexual slavery was the condition. While suddenly the laws may change,
to some extent, the conditioning doesn't go away that fast.

Women have been dependent upon men for their survival, for the survival
of their children. So what they have done over the centuries is evolve
the fine use of sexual power. A woman's place, her entire experience in
life, has been and in many places still is dependent upon the man she
marries.

In the case of the brujos, the sorcerers in Mexico, the Spanish
Conquest forced them to develop their second attention. They had
developed it to an extent, but the conquest caused them to develop
their second attention completely so they would not be destroyed.

Men fearing their innate power, pushed woman back into slavery. Woman
knowing this was not right but not knowing what else to do, developed
the only means to fight for their survival that they had, since their
survival was dependent upon men, and that was to use sexuality to
survive.

What women have done is developed a survival mechanism, and it's a
fascinating one and it's been effective and justified, in my opinion.
That is the ability to manipulate men sexually. Men are really not all
that interested in sex. For most men, sex is a very simple experience.


In order to survive women have developed their second attention, which
men have not evolved. They use the second attention, and have used it
most effectively, to manipulate men; it's a justifiable reaction that
has been necessary for survival.

Women have developed the second attention because they were repressed,
because they were manipulated, because they were used as property, as
chattel, historically, for thousands of years and still today. The
second attention is the occult side of the being. It is the ability to
manipulate others, be it for good or ill intent.

A young girl is taught through the example of other women how to
manipulate a man...and she's absolutely correct in doing so because the
job she will get, the man she will marry, the experiences she will
have, are very much dictated by her ability to do so.

It is everyday for a woman to project a very strong wave of sexual
energy through her second attention into a man, for him to assume that
the energy he feels is his own. She's trying to compensate for the
political freedom, religious freedom, economic freedom, cultural and
social freedom that she's been denied. She's been forced into
developing her second attention and using it.

For men, it's absolutely essential to stop believing that they're
superior to women because that very belief engenders ego, which sets
them off balance. Therefore, they don't realize that they're being
manipulated by the second attention of woman because their ego won't
permit them.

What a man must do is realize that his continued belief in the
inferiority of women is going to produce a type of karma that is going
to hold him back, and already has.

The majority of times when a man thinks he has been the instigator,
which men like to think, in sexual and romantic experiences, that has
not been the case. Women have allowed you to think that - which is part
of their inaccessibility in using their second attention.

Observe how women defeat each other; whether it's simply for a
promotion, for a husband, for survival, so she won't be beaten up in a
relationship. She has to now fear every other woman because every
woman represents a threat to her. If her security rests upon her
alliance with a man, another woman may take that man away; therefore
women have no unity between themselves.

Men have learned the secret of unity. Women do not help each other
attain enlightenment because in the description of the world they've
been given, unlike that of men, it's every woman for herself in order
to survive; because your very own sister may take your husband away and
your husband may be the ticket for economic survival.

Sisterhood is powerful. Woman can support each other as women, in their
pursuit for enlightenment or anything else, without fear. But as long
as she's still in the commodities exchange market, buying and selling,
she must fear the competition.

For men, it's necessary to push aside that marvelous ego that tells you
that you are all knowing and capable, and see that you are not...much
of the time your attention is directed towards the world of sexuality
as you've been brought up with it, it's done through the second
attention of a woman...not simply in your physical presence but from
thousands of miles away.

When a civilization, a race, a people, a society, when they lack love,
they are soon destroyed.
Gale
2005-05-07 22:24:03 UTC
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Why don't more women attain enlightenment? <snip>
This sort of extended rant seldom produces informative discussion -- in
fact, I rather doubt that many people would spend their time reading
such a piece. I might suggest that you observe the sort of posts found
on the group and use that information in gauging whether and how to post.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale

poetry, fiction, reviews at my
Alchemist's Cauldron http://www.capjewels.com/gale/gale.html
modstaff alt.religion.wicca.moderated http:arwm.net

"Come, let us go, while we are in our prime,
And take the harmless folly of the time."
--- Robert Herrick, "Corrina's Going A-Maying"
Tiliqua
2005-05-08 07:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Under close feline supervision,
I reply to Gale's thesis:
in which it was mentioned that
Post by Gale
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? <snip>
This sort of extended rant seldom produces informative discussion -- in
fact, I rather doubt that many people would spend their time reading
such a piece. I might suggest that you observe the sort of posts found
on the group and use that information in gauging whether and how to post.
In any case, given the nature of this group's membership and gestalt I
reckon the Dr. is preaching to the choir.
--

May the Lord and The Lady prosper your ventures
Jackdaw
2005-05-08 07:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gale
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? <snip>
This sort of extended rant seldom produces informative discussion -- in
fact, I rather doubt that many people would spend their time reading such
a piece. I might suggest that you observe the sort of posts found on the
group and use that information in gauging whether and how to post.
--
Blessed Be,
Gale
That's what I did, read a paragraph, skimmed a paragraph, thought, "Dreary,
dreary me" ands carried on to the next post.
Waste if time reading it.
( For me anyway )
--
Jackdaw collector of junk, trivia and bright twinkly things.
Foiled on http://www.jackdaw-crafts.net
Wood Avens
2005-05-08 09:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gale
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? <snip>
This sort of extended rant seldom produces informative discussion -- in
fact, I rather doubt that many people would spend their time reading
such a piece. I might suggest that you observe the sort of posts found
on the group and use that information in gauging whether and how to post.
I started reading it, expecting to come upon some statistics
purporting to uderpin the premise, but no. On what grounds can anyone
make the assertion that more men than women attain enlightenment? And
flipping through the rest of the message it doesn't appear to be about
enlightenment at all. So I stopped reading.
--
Wood Avens

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
janet
2005-05-08 12:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wood Avens
I started reading it, expecting to come upon some statistics
purporting to uderpin the premise, but no. On what grounds can anyone
make the assertion that more men than women attain enlightenment?
Fowler, I would have said - not that I know whether or not Fowler's
work leads to that conclusion, mind you.

However, it's the only scale I know of that *would* lead to figures.
--
Pig's in zen...
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Wood Avens
2005-05-08 14:10:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by janet
Post by Wood Avens
I started reading it, expecting to come upon some statistics
purporting to uderpin the premise, but no. On what grounds can anyone
make the assertion that more men than women attain enlightenment?
Fowler, I would have said - not that I know whether or not Fowler's
work leads to that conclusion, mind you.
However, it's the only scale I know of that *would* lead to figures.
<googlegooglegoogle> OK, this is James Fowler, is it?

I googled up some illuminating stuff about his six stages of what he
calls faith (and which I'd probably call spiritual awareness), which
it would be interesting to compare with other similar-but-different
schemata from different religions/spiritualities (and which, clearly,
some of the cited works do); but nothing that I can see to indicate
whether he (or anyone else) finds these stages to be
sex-differentiated.

Then again, I got 24,000 hits for <james fowler + enlightenment> and I
admit to not having looked at every one of them ...

Some very interesting articles, though - not necessarily by or
primarily about Fowler. This one, for instance:
http://francesvaughan.com/work1.htm
--
Wood Avens

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
janet
2005-05-08 18:11:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wood Avens
Post by janet
Post by Wood Avens
I started reading it, expecting to come upon some statistics
purporting to uderpin the premise, but no. On what grounds can anyone
make the assertion that more men than women attain enlightenment?
Fowler, I would have said - not that I know whether or not Fowler's
work leads to that conclusion, mind you.
However, it's the only scale I know of that *would* lead to figures.
<googlegooglegoogle> OK, this is James Fowler, is it?
Yes, sorry. :)
Post by Wood Avens
I googled up some illuminating stuff about his six stages of what he
calls faith (and which I'd probably call spiritual awareness), which
it would be interesting to compare with other similar-but-different
schemata from different religions/spiritualities (and which, clearly,
some of the cited works do); but nothing that I can see to indicate
whether he (or anyone else) finds these stages to be
sex-differentiated.
Like I said, I didn't know if he did, so... and yes it would be VERY
interesting and I would love to get the funding...
Post by Wood Avens
Then again, I got 24,000 hits for <james fowler + enlightenment> and I
admit to not having looked at every one of them ...
Some very interesting articles, though - not necessarily by or
http://francesvaughan.com/work1.htm
Interesting article - I don't have time to read it all atm, but
interesting melding of ideas...
--
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
* TagZilla 0.057 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
Wood Avens
2005-05-08 19:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by janet
Post by Wood Avens
I googled up some illuminating stuff about his six stages of what he
calls faith (and which I'd probably call spiritual awareness), which
it would be interesting to compare with other similar-but-different
schemata from different religions/spiritualities (and which, clearly,
some of the cited works do); but nothing that I can see to indicate
whether he (or anyone else) finds these stages to be
sex-differentiated.
Like I said, I didn't know if he did, so... and yes it would be VERY
interesting and I would love to get the funding...
You mean, interesting to compare scemata of spiritual awareness, or
interesting to see whether attainment of different stages was sex
differentiated? One of my problems with the original premise is the
issue of actually identifying who's in your target group (of
enlightened people). Anyone who goes around saying they're
enlightened is almost certainly, by definition, not. :-)
--
Wood Avens

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Yowie
2005-05-08 23:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gale
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? <snip>
This sort of extended rant seldom produces informative discussion -- in
fact, I rather doubt that many people would spend their time reading
such a piece. I might suggest that you observe the sort of posts found
on the group and use that information in gauging whether and how to post.
The orignal didn't turn up on individual's newsserver, so I went for a
google.

*boggle*

Whilst, I , as a woman, can appreciate some parts of the rant as somewhat
true, it entirely fails to explain the terms it uses (what on earth is
second attention?) and even fails to define what enlightenment it. If you
can't even saywhat enlightenment is, how can you possibly assert that less
women achieve it than men (and what if women's enlightenment is different to
mens?)

To me, it seems like a fairly typical 'feminazi' rant against men. All huff
and puff, with no actual research or documentation to back up the claims.

Yowie
carl
2005-05-11 09:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
second attention?) and even fails to define what enlightenment it. If you
can't even saywhat enlightenment is,
If enlightment could easily be described then should it be more easily
obtained. Although seeking it is, from what I hear, self defeating.

....carl (the true False Buddha)

Amethyst
2005-05-09 02:31:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? Rama - Dr. Frederick Lenz
They do, far more then men, since they have learnt the Great Lesson Of
Humilty.

In the Good Old days (tm) I would have been classed as a member of the
third sex. Men, Women, and Eunuchs. There certainly were enough of us
eunuchs back then, mostly as slaves, so I doubt if the concept of
enlightenment came to them much

Me? I am still searching. I use AA's step 11 and have been trying to
find The Goddess and Gods will for me, and what Power I am to use to
carry it out. At the moment, all the oracles seem to suggest that I
should keep on open mind, study, and (most importantly) honor the
Goddess in her essence of BAST by continueing to spoil rescued cats
rotten
Amethyst
2005-05-09 06:33:30 UTC
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Post by c***@yahoo.com
Why don't more women attain enlightenment? Rama - Dr. Frederick Lenz
KUAN YIN
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