Discussion:
Rosicrucianism?
(too old to reply)
Yowie
2003-07-18 11:40:14 UTC
Permalink
Most of you folk will know that I'm a Christian, or at least, I was, or am
still somewhat. Or something. And that I also have a strong interest in
Wicca, Paganism and mysticism, even (dare I say?) magic. Which makes my
spiritual path very confusing at times. I'm nearly finished my 1st degree in
the Correllian Wicca tradition, which while it was interesting and certainly
more "me" than the teachings of the Reformed Druids of North America, Order
of the Mithral Star back when they were still teaching 'witchcraft', still
isn't quite what I'm looking for. TO be honest, I really have no idea what
I'm looking for. It doens't seem to be in any Christian churches I have been
to (well, not quite true, there is *something* in there that grabs me, but
its so wrapped up in BS, I can hardly stand listening to standard Christian
preaching anymore) and while Wicca certainly has more of whatever it is that
I am looking for, it isn't *it* if that makes any sense.

So, I'm stumbling around in the dark again (hey, ho, here we go again) and
come across rosicrucianism. All looks interesting, seems to deal with
Christianity in a *mystery religion* sort of way and my curiousity is
piqued. Until I see their fees, and then think "not bloody likely, mate".
Which was rather judgemental, since I really don't know whether their
courses are actually worth the price of membership or not.

Which leads me to you folk. Have any of you studied rosicrucianism? Are any
of you rosicrucians or know of anyone who is? Is it a great waste of money
or is it really worth the effort? There really isn't any money spare at the
end of the month as it is, so it would have to be a big commitment on my
part to join and to do so would mean something else has to go to fund it,
which would be OK if it was worthwhile, but not OK if I don't find the
course useful - I can't just "blow money" on useless but fun stuff at the
moment (saving for my wedding in Novemeber). Keep in mind that I'm really
beyond "101" now, as my experience with the Correllian courses have shown
me - sure, there is always new stuff I can learn, but I was already familiar
with most of the "core" stuff they were teaching.

Any insights would be welcome.

I really wish ChristoPaganism was more accepted as a path in its own
right....

Yowie
Baird Stafford
2003-07-18 20:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Yowie <***@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Yowie
Which leads me to you folk. Have any of you studied rosicrucianism? Are any
of you rosicrucians or know of anyone who is? Is it a great waste of money
or is it really worth the effort? There really isn't any money spare at the
end of the month as it is, so it would have to be a big commitment on my
part to join and to do so would mean something else has to go to fund it,
which would be OK if it was worthwhile, but not OK if I don't find the
course useful - I can't just "blow money" on useless but fun stuff at the
moment (saving for my wedding in Novemeber). Keep in mind that I'm really
beyond "101" now, as my experience with the Correllian courses have shown
me - sure, there is always new stuff I can learn, but I was already familiar
with most of the "core" stuff they were teaching.
I suggest buying a copy of Israel Regardie's THE GOLDEN DAWN if you
don't already have one, Yowie. The GD was, originally, an offshoot of
the Soc. Ros. in Anglia (Rosicrucian Society in England) and still
contains much in the way of Rosicrucian teachings. In point of fact and
to the best of my knowledge, most "Rosicrucian" organizations were more
or less begun by splinter groups from (mostly) the GD who thought the
original teachings were "too pagan." (I've not made a study of
Rosicrucians, so I suppose some of 'em might well be offshoots from the
OTO, and for similar reasons.)

I should probably point out that my information about Rosicrucians is
certainly true in the US, but may not be as accurate in the rest of the
world....

Blessed be,
Baird
Baird Stafford
2003-07-19 06:55:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baird Stafford
<snip>
Post by Yowie
Which leads me to you folk. Have any of you studied rosicrucianism? Are any
of you rosicrucians or know of anyone who is? Is it a great waste of money
or is it really worth the effort? There really isn't any money spare at the
end of the month as it is, so it would have to be a big commitment on my
part to join and to do so would mean something else has to go to fund it,
which would be OK if it was worthwhile, but not OK if I don't find the
course useful - I can't just "blow money" on useless but fun stuff at the
moment (saving for my wedding in Novemeber). Keep in mind that I'm really
beyond "101" now, as my experience with the Correllian courses have shown
me - sure, there is always new stuff I can learn, but I was already familiar
with most of the "core" stuff they were teaching.
I suggest buying a copy of Israel Regardie's THE GOLDEN DAWN if you
don't already have one, Yowie. The GD was, originally, an offshoot of
the Soc. Ros. in Anglia (Rosicrucian Society in England) and still
contains much in the way of Rosicrucian teachings. In point of fact and
to the best of my knowledge, most "Rosicrucian" organizations were more
or less begun by splinter groups from (mostly) the GD who thought the
original teachings were "too pagan." (I've not made a study of
Rosicrucians, so I suppose some of 'em might well be offshoots from the
OTO, and for similar reasons.)
I should probably point out that my information about Rosicrucians is
certainly true in the US, but may not be as accurate in the rest of the
world....
Feh. Following up to my own article. Shame, shame, shame.

I forgot to say earlier that there is an initiating GD temple in New
Zealand, so if you decide to pursue the option you should be able to
find some "locals" in more or less your own neighborhood.

Blessed be,
Baird
Rowan
2003-07-20 19:30:14 UTC
Permalink
Baird Stafford wrote in message
Post by Baird Stafford
...
Post by Baird Stafford
I should probably point out that my information about Rosicrucians is
certainly true in the US, but may not be as accurate in the rest of the
world....
Feh. Following up to my own article. Shame, shame, shame.
I forgot to say earlier that there is an initiating GD temple in New
Zealand, so if you decide to pursue the option you should be able to
find some "locals" in more or less your own neighborhood.
There is???

I have a friend in this city who would be very interested to know more about
that, as he's been looking into it and came to the conclusion that there are
no real GD temples still going anywhere. At least, that's what I think he
said.

BB
Rowan
--


Tauranga, New Zealand
Baird Stafford
2003-07-21 09:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowan
Baird Stafford wrote in message
<snip>
Post by Rowan
Post by Baird Stafford
I forgot to say earlier that there is an initiating GD temple in New
Zealand, so if you decide to pursue the option you should be able to
find some "locals" in more or less your own neighborhood.
There is???
Yep.
Post by Rowan
I have a friend in this city who would be very interested to know more about
that, as he's been looking into it and came to the conclusion that there are
no real GD temples still going anywhere. At least, that's what I think he
said.
Actually, the NZ Temple (I've forgotten its name, but its Heirophant is
Pat-something-starting-with-Z) probably has one of the best initiatory
lineages going. IIRC, it was begun by somebody who emigrated out of
economic necessity rather than by somebody who quarreled with the GD
Establishment and stomped off to start his/her own competing order
somewhere else.

In any case, it's as valid as any other GD Temple going and may be more
valid than most - although, just like any other Temple, it has its
detractors....

Blessed be,
Baird
-A.
2003-07-23 08:05:01 UTC
Permalink
And after I went to all the trouble of translating your email to a post...
fnord... fortunately I had more posts to read before I posted!
BB
You Know Who
--
Tauranga, New Zealand
Alright. Not wanting to steer this too far from its' original topic
but, aside from (Wait - George Dorn is screaming) R. A. Wilson and the
Discordians (and their collective ilks), what does a fnord have to do
with Rosicrucianism? And, would anyone here give me any info on how
this whole fnord business got started/what fnord means or is a parody of
etc?

Blessed Be,
-A., who still uses 5, 17, and 23 as part of his weekly lottery numbers

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d-- s-:+ a-->? C++++ UL+++ P+>++ L++>+++ E+++ W++>+++ N++
o K- w>--- O- M- V- PS++ PE- Y+ PGP+ t+++ 5-- X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++++
D---- G++++ e* h! !r !y+>**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Rowan
2003-07-23 19:30:01 UTC
Permalink
I was copying from a friend who uses 'fnord' as alternative to 'fuck' 'damn'
etc in this sort of situation. Other meanings are unknown to me.

BB
Rowan

--


Tauranga, New Zealand
Post by -A.
And after I went to all the trouble of translating your email to a post...
fnord... fortunately I had more posts to read before I posted!
BB
You Know Who
--
Tauranga, New Zealand
Alright. Not wanting to steer this too far from its' original topic
but, aside from (Wait - George Dorn is screaming) R. A. Wilson and the
Discordians (and their collective ilks), what does a fnord have to do
with Rosicrucianism? And, would anyone here give me any info on how
this whole fnord business got started/what fnord means or is a parody of
etc?
Blessed Be,
-A., who still uses 5, 17, and 23 as part of his weekly lottery numbers
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS d-- s-:+ a-->? C++++ UL+++ P+>++ L++>+++ E+++ W++>+++ N++
o K- w>--- O- M- V- PS++ PE- Y+ PGP+ t+++ 5-- X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++++
D---- G++++ e* h! !r !y+>**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Shez
2003-07-18 22:00:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
Most of you folk will know that I'm a Christian, or at least, I was, or am
still somewhat. Or something. And that I also have a strong interest in
Wicca, Paganism and mysticism, even (dare I say?) magic. Which makes my
spiritual path very confusing at times. I'm nearly finished my 1st degree in
the Correllian Wicca tradition, which while it was interesting and certainly
more "me" than the teachings of the Reformed Druids of North America, Order
of the Mithral Star back when they were still teaching 'witchcraft', still
isn't quite what I'm looking for. TO be honest, I really have no idea what
I'm looking for. It doens't seem to be in any Christian churches I have been
to (well, not quite true, there is *something* in there that grabs me, but
its so wrapped up in BS, I can hardly stand listening to standard Christian
preaching anymore) and while Wicca certainly has more of whatever it is that
I am looking for, it isn't *it* if that makes any sense.
So, I'm stumbling around in the dark again (hey, ho, here we go again) and
come across rosicrucianism. All looks interesting, seems to deal with
Christianity in a *mystery religion* sort of way and my curiousity is
piqued. Until I see their fees, and then think "not bloody likely, mate".
Which was rather judgemental, since I really don't know whether their
courses are actually worth the price of membership or not.
Which leads me to you folk. Have any of you studied rosicrucianism? Are any
of you rosicrucians or know of anyone who is? Is it a great waste of money
or is it really worth the effort? There really isn't any money spare at the
end of the month as it is, so it would have to be a big commitment on my
part to join and to do so would mean something else has to go to fund it,
which would be OK if it was worthwhile, but not OK if I don't find the
course useful - I can't just "blow money" on useless but fun stuff at the
moment (saving for my wedding in Novemeber). Keep in mind that I'm really
beyond "101" now, as my experience with the Correllian courses have shown
me - sure, there is always new stuff I can learn, but I was already familiar
with most of the "core" stuff they were teaching.
Any insights would be welcome.
I really wish ChristoPaganism was more accepted as a path in its own
right....
Yowie
Your a Christo pagan, you might be one of the very few and first of this
new Christian side shoot, but it all has to start somewhere, its much
easier to come in later and have it all layed out and accepted by
people. But on the other hand you miss the fun of being in at the
begining of something new, you don't get to influence what might be a
new spiritual path, and you don't have the delight of meeting others who
are similarly bemused, bewildered and beguiled by paganism...
Just think how lucky you are to have all this fun and hard work in front
of you... you will not get bored in this lifetime at least, following
the different paths to find your very own spiritual nook.
One thing however, keep in mind that Martyrdom is not part of the pagan
philosophy... :)
Its more along the lines of "They who fight and run away, live to fight
another day "
--
Shez ***@oldcity.demon.co.uk
Paul Hume
2003-07-18 23:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
Any insights would be welcome.
Don't bother with the AMORC. Read up on the histiry of Rosicrucianism:
the Fama Fraternitatis, the "Rosicrucian enlightenment" - Dame Frances
Yates covers this ground beautifully in her several historical works
on Bruno, Bacon, et al.

Modern Gnosticism has drawn on Rosicrucianism as a source, you might
look at people like Stephen Hoeller.
Synn
2003-07-19 06:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
Any insights would be welcome.
I really wish ChristoPaganism was more accepted as a path in its own
right....
Yowie
You and me both. I still at times go to church with hubby but also
observe the Pagan holidays. I just sort of quit going to church though
because this particular one started preaching sermons about giving
money for the new site they are thinking of acquiring and that was
pretty much the sermon for about three sundays in a row. Then I got
sick and didn't go back.

*
~Synn~
*
Speak ye little, Listen much.
*
Quill
2003-07-22 00:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
Most of you folk will know that I'm a Christian, or at least, I was, or am
still somewhat.
<snip>
Post by Yowie
So, I'm stumbling around in the dark again (hey, ho, here we go again) and
come across rosicrucianism. All looks interesting, seems to deal with
Christianity in a *mystery religion* sort of way and my curiousity is
piqued. Until I see their fees, and then think "not bloody likely, mate".
Which was rather judgemental, since I really don't know whether their
courses are actually worth the price of membership or not.
A couple of things-

First of all, there is no one group that can monopolise the name
'Rosicrucian', in the same way there is no one church that can
monopolise the name 'Christian'. AMORC (as mentioned in another
post), which proudly announces itself to be the largest Rosicrucian
organisation in the world is just one of a number of organisations-
also one of the most expensive (it has all those glossy magazines to
support, after all). Unfortunately the name Rosicrucian was, for a
while, something of a catch-phrase and many orders adopted the name
regardless of whether or not they were actually Rosicrucian in ethos.
Some Rosicrucian groups are faithful to the ideals that originated the
movement (radical protestant mysticism) and others are Rosicrucian in
name only. Most fall on the spectrum in between. So, how can you
tell whether a group is truly Rosicrucian? Basically the way to do it
is to join and find out for yourself. If you do not think they live
up to what you are looking for, then move on. Unless you are
extremely fortunate, or uncritical of what you actually want, you will
not find it first time. The whole environment of Rosicrucian and
hermetic groups is layered like an onion, there are progressive layers
to peel off to get to where you want to go- layers that lie both
within and without a particular order. It is quite important to
remember that the spiritual life is a process, not a destination, and
the search for what you want is where you find the most learning.

If you are looking for Christian occultism/mysticism, might I also
suggest you look at Martinism? While a few Martinist orgs are
starting to de-emphasise the Christian content (predictably these
groups are largely American based) most Martinist orders are still
emphatically Christian.
Post by Yowie
I really wish ChristoPaganism was more accepted as a path in its own
right....
Given the fact that 'ChristoPaganism' is an oxymoron, if you mean
'ChristoOccultism', I think you would be surprised at how many occult
Orders, groups and societies are Christ orientated.

Assuming you live in Oz, where in Oz do you live?

Cheers

Quill
Yowie
2003-07-23 00:55:04 UTC
Permalink
"Quill" <***@yahoo.com> wrote

<snip helpful stuff about "rosicrucianism" for bandwidth only>
Post by Quill
If you are looking for Christian occultism/mysticism, might I also
suggest you look at Martinism? While a few Martinist orgs are
starting to de-emphasise the Christian content (predictably these
groups are largely American based) most Martinist orders are still
emphatically Christian.
Never heard of the Martinists.... time for another great internet
expedition.
Post by Quill
Post by Yowie
I really wish ChristoPaganism was more accepted as a path in its own
right....
Given the fact that 'ChristoPaganism' is an oxymoron, if you mean
'ChristoOccultism', I think you would be surprised at how many occult
Orders, groups and societies are Christ orientated.
Um, ChristoPaganism, is not, IMHO, an oxymoron. Perhaps its not the best
one-word description for my own personal beliefs, but one can easily be a
Pagan with the Christ as part of (or even the main ) diety. Or
alternatively, someone like myself who still wishes to maintain at least
some rudimetary Christian beliefs, but has adopted a very much Pagan outlook
on life and finds Pagan rituals and attitudes for more sensible, relevant
and meaningful than that offered by current mainstream Christian culture.

Its really only an oxymoron if you define "pagan" as "not-Christian" and I
personally think it means a whole lot more than that.

But YMMV, its a small point of semantics.

"ChristoOccultism" just doesn't sound right to me as I have always been
taught that occultism is pretty much the antithesis of allt hat is
Christian. Using the world "occult" still makes the bits of me raised in a
fundy church shudder :-). I'd prefer to use the term Christian Mysticism,
although again, its just semantics.
Post by Quill
Assuming you live in Oz, where in Oz do you live?
In the southern outskirts of Sydney. Why?

Yowie
Yowie
2003-07-27 01:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yowie
I'd prefer to use the term
Christian Mysticism, although again, its just semantics.
Um, no, it's not just semantics.
Christian mysticism has been going on since at least the Transfiguration,
and is an integral part of the older Christian groups (like mine). It's
hardly occult (except in the sense that a lot of people don't know about
it - but it's not "hidden" which is what occult means).
Christian mysticism - John of the Cross, Hildegard, Mechtild, Julian,
Clare,
francis, Catherine, Dominic, et... - is and has been around for a long
time.

Thanks for the reminder, Janet. Its something I need to look into.

Yowie
mist
2003-07-28 09:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Christian mysticism - John of the Cross, Hildegard, Mechtild, Julian, Clare,
francis, Catherine, Dominic, et... - is and has been around for a long time.
I think the author of the book series that included the title "Saint
Camber" was a Michaelain (sp?).
It was an awesome [set of] trilogy and the real-life stuff sounded
really interesting too.

Sorry I can't recall the names too well - I read the series over 10
years ago.

I do remember the Priest, Duncan, was one of the mystically empowered
people and that it caused an interesting examination of his beliefs
and interpretations of the doctrines of the church.
Tiliqua
2003-07-28 22:25:02 UTC
Permalink
Following intense negotiations with a potato,
Post by mist
Christian mysticism - John of the Cross, Hildegard, Mechtild, Julian, Clare,
francis, Catherine, Dominic, et... - is and has been around for a long time.
I think the author of the book series that included the title "Saint
Camber" was a Michaelain (sp?).
Katherine Kurtz, author of the "Deryni" series, which occupies some
nine volumes on my shelf.

Highly recommended.............. as is her non-Deryni "Lammas Night"
(eh? ears prick up......wh???..... "Lammas".........?????????? WHAT
is she writing about??)

Basically that book concerns the raising of the mystical Cone of Power
over Great Britain in 1940-41 and touches on the concepts of the
Sacred King and willing sacrifice. That's a very compressed precis.

You might also look at her "Adept" series in which some of the
characters from Lammas Night make a fleeting appearance.
Post by mist
It was an awesome [set of] trilogy and the real-life stuff sounded
really interesting too.
Sorry I can't recall the names too well - I read the series over 10
years ago.
I do remember the Priest, Duncan, was one of the mystically empowered
people and that it caused an interesting examination of his beliefs
and interpretations of the doctrines of the church.
May the Lord and The Lady prosper your ventures

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